Seven..
...or maybe Eight
Reged: 03/02/2003
Posts: 4987
Loc: Havant, UK
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If Nikon have gone full frame on their high end cameras do you think this means they have peaked with the APS-C sized sensor?
After reading/hearing a bit about FF it does seem image quality and low light capabilities are far better, so with this in mind no one who has FF is going to go back to APS-C as Nikon get onto the next task of ever improving FF
So do you think this is the beginning of the end for the serious amateur/pro for APS-C?
Also do you think FF will push up the price of the old 35mm lenses or do you think those who have FF will go for any glass made in particular for the digital FF?
-------------------- Tanya(BSRIPN)
CastVision
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Nod
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 08/04/2006
Posts: 4180
Loc: Devon, UK.
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Older legacy users will stick with their older lenses and will be happy with them but newer adopters may well be swayed by the Fx badges and Digital monikers that newer lenses will bear.
Maybe the D300 is pretty much as far as Nikon reckon they can go with Dx. Low noise performance is apparently excellent and the 12.3MP is about as tightly packed (in terms of pixel/photosite density) as possible (at the moment). They've left the D400, D500 and D600 labels available for future upgrades though!!!
-------------------- MATWSIJ.....
To avoid being offended, please insert apropriate smiley.
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Seven..
...or maybe Eight
Reged: 03/02/2003
Posts: 4987
Loc: Havant, UK
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That's what I wondered the 4,5,600 will these be fx or dx, or will they be cunning enough to inch the sensor up and up until they have to give into Fx for all. Or will the improvments be on body or other bits and bobs. Apparently the D300 isn't as waterproof as the D700,so perhaps the D400 will be 
All speculation I guess but I did wonder now the FF is out and as this drops in price how many will be swayed toward this market, I think Nikon are going to have to come up with some very pretty deals to keep the interest in dx if that is their plan which perhaps could be quite beneficial to the the amateur consumer and the money be on the lenses for fx.
Just thinking out loud really as it's going to be interesting to see what happens next
-------------------- Tanya(BSRIPN)
CastVision
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Adesw
The phantom flasher
Reged: 07/02/2008
Posts: 706
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The simple thing that keeps the interest in DX is, reach, size, and price!
Also DOF on a DX camera is greater, so faster lenses can be used without having to worry so much about Tiny DOF's.
But then thats balanced by better ISO performance. Ya pay your moneys and make your choices I guess. Id love a FF camera, but right now I feel lighting and lenses is more important, and My D200 serves me well.
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NorthernNikon
Bulls Hitter
Reged: 16/12/2005
Posts: 5639
Loc: Harrogate, North Yorks
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Quote:
The simple thing that keeps the interest in DX is, reach, size, and price!
I think that's the key. Full frame is still a £2,000 prize. The D300 has dropped to less than £1,000 but that's still a hell of a lot of money. The only reason for me to lust after full frame is the improved quality of noise at high ISO but to be honest my D300 is a superb camera and I would only seriously consider forking out for a D3 if I were earning plenty of cash. I wouldn't consider the D700 because I think I'd be as well getting a D3 than a D700 and grip.
-------------------- www.BarneyAllen.com the new home of ComicShots.
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Seven..
...or maybe Eight
Reged: 03/02/2003
Posts: 4987
Loc: Havant, UK
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So for some cost is the factor, but wonder how long it will be before full frame is the £1000 things seemmed to have moved pretty fast in this last few months.
I've no doubt people will stick with what they have but for anyone stepping up to the pro/am camera will they go directly for full frame.
I believe Nikon have about reached their maximum for image quality on APS-C sized sensors
-------------------- Tanya(BSRIPN)
CastVision
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NorthernNikon
Bulls Hitter
Reged: 16/12/2005
Posts: 5639
Loc: Harrogate, North Yorks
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It's not just cost in terms of what the consumer is prepared to pay, it's also cost in terms of R&D and set costs for manufacture to the producer. Nikon have invested a lot into the DX format over the years, including a whole set of lenses speciifcally for it. NBikon will have been working on the full frame format for some time, but I don't see them dropping the DX format anytime soon, or ceasing development of it.
-------------------- www.BarneyAllen.com the new home of ComicShots.
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El Sid
Going potty
Reged: 14/04/2003
Posts: 9297
Loc: Sussex-by-the-Sea
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Quote:
...but wonder how long it will be before full frame is the £1000 things seemed to have moved pretty fast in this last few months.
September?
Rumours have been running around about the Canon 5D replacement for months and with Nikon's recent success with the D3 they need something to grab the world's attention. I would not be at all surprised if the 5D replacement is the full frame equivalent of the 300D - the first of it's kind to be £1000 or less...
Quote:
I've no doubt people will stick with what they have but for anyone stepping up to the pro/am camera will they go directly for full frame.
Maybe, maybe not. Don't forget some folks could well have a collection of lenses that are APS format only - moving up to full frame isn't just a matter of buying a new body but of buying the lenses to go with it. OK with Nikon there is the option of using DX lenses on an FX body in cropped mode which at least delays the additional expense but in the long term you don't buy full frame to then only use 2/3rds of it's sensor...
Even for me it's something of a dilemma. Both my digital Canons are APS format and I only have 2 APS format lenses plus a bunch of 35mm format lenses. Theoretically this means I could swap straight to full frame and have lenses that are usable on it. Trouble is many are quite elderly and FF seems to be more critical of lenses with moderate ability meaning I could still end up having to buy better glass. I'm also not sure I'd want to run an APS camera alongside either. At the moment I'm tempted but not decided...... 
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I believe Nikon have about reached their maximum for image quality on APS-C sized sensors
Bit of a sweeping statement Tanya and one I'd honestly doubt bearing in mind the advances that have been made in the last 10 years alone. Pixel counts may not go up since enthusiast DSLR users are generally more impressed by image quality and noise free imaging than the world of compact users and so it's in this area where I think improvements will continue. Also I suspect entry level models will remain in APS format for a long time yet - a £1000 FF model is one thing but getting one below £500 is, I suspect, still along way off...
-------------------- Nigel
Completely BSRIPN
ElSid Gallery
A camera in the hand is better than one in the cupboard........
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Adesw
The phantom flasher
Reged: 07/02/2008
Posts: 706
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Your also neglecting the idea of future technology being incorporated.
I.E a new kind of pixel/sensor that has less noise and produces sharper and punchier images. We've seen the effect of upgrading from CCD to CMOS, so what could be next?
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NorthernNikon
Bulls Hitter
Reged: 16/12/2005
Posts: 5639
Loc: Harrogate, North Yorks
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Quote:
Rumours have been running around about the Canon 5D replacement for months and with Nikon's recent success with the D3 they need something to grab the world's attention. I would not be at all surprised if the 5D replacement is the full frame equivalent of the 300D - the first of it's kind to be £1000 or less...
I doubt that we'll see a new full frame model below £1000 for a long time yet. The most expensive part of a DSLR is the sensor and you have to have a certain level of specification to get most out of the sensor. Canon and Nikon traditionally pitch models in the their competitor's gaps. My guess would be that the new 5D would be pitched below the D700 and above the D300 so somewhere in the £1500-£2000 mark.
-------------------- www.BarneyAllen.com the new home of ComicShots.
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37028
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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Well you could well be right - but the 5D is now touching £1100, so the £1000 mark really isn't that far off. If Canon could pitch it directly against the D300, I'm pretty sure they would. Or maybe they might do what they've done at the bottom end, and release the long-desired 3D and perhaps a full-frame 50D, effectively a mild warmover of the existing 5D at a sub-grand price level? That would put the cat among the pigeons, and probably still be profitable. Ah, pointless speculation, the fuel that feeds internet forums.
-------------------- Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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NorthernNikon
Bulls Hitter
Reged: 16/12/2005
Posts: 5639
Loc: Harrogate, North Yorks
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Quote:
Well you could well be right - but the 5D is now touching £1100, so the £1000 mark really isn't that far off.
But that's for a pretty basic full frame model at the end of its prodcut lifecycle. R&D and manufacturing tooling and set-up costs will all have been recouped a long time ago making the 5D's price drop possible. I doubt Canon will just launch a revamped version of the 5D so for them to launch a new model at a lower price point would require them to be able to either utilise design and machining from another model, and the only option would be the 1D which probably isn't feasible to do for under £1,000, or to have come up with such a radical technology that the costs of the sensor itself are reduced to such a level that the other costs don't take the RRP over £1,000. I just don't see it happening.
-------------------- www.BarneyAllen.com the new home of ComicShots.
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37028
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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Quote:
I doubt Canon will just launch a revamped version of the 5D so for them to launch a new model at a lower price point would require them to be able to either utilise design and machining from another model
Er, yes, the 5D...
-------------------- Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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El Sid
Going potty
Reged: 14/04/2003
Posts: 9297
Loc: Sussex-by-the-Sea
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Quote:
...and perhaps a full-frame 50D...
Interestingly I've also been speculating along similar lines... I was thinking of something like the existing 5D sensor shoehorned into a mildly warmed over 40D body...
-------------------- Nigel
Completely BSRIPN
ElSid Gallery
A camera in the hand is better than one in the cupboard........
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El Sid
Going potty
Reged: 14/04/2003
Posts: 9297
Loc: Sussex-by-the-Sea
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Quote:
I doubt that we'll see a new full frame model below £1000 for a long time yet...
Personally I really doubt it's going to be that long - IMO the race is on and we have yet to see what the Sony stable intend.
I only said I wouldn't be surprised... Chances are that the SRP of the 5D replacement probably won't be £1000 but I'm strongly inclined to think it could be released with the sort of SRP that could well mean a street, or at least Internet, price of £1k is not out of the question.......
-------------------- Nigel
Completely BSRIPN
ElSid Gallery
A camera in the hand is better than one in the cupboard........
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 37028
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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If there's no ff DSLR on sale for under £1000 by the end of 2009, I will be shocked.
-------------------- Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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NorthernNikon
Bulls Hitter
Reged: 16/12/2005
Posts: 5639
Loc: Harrogate, North Yorks
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Quote:
Quote:
I doubt Canon will just launch a revamped version of the 5D so for them to launch a new model at a lower price point would require them to be able to either utilise design and machining from another model
Er, yes, the 5D...
You think thay'd reuse the 5D's body? Surely they'd be looking to put a 3" screen in.
I certainly don't think we'll see a full frame camera released at a price point below £1000 in the next 12 months, I'd be surpised if there was one released before the end of 2009.
-------------------- www.BarneyAllen.com the new home of ComicShots.
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Seven..
...or maybe Eight
Reged: 03/02/2003
Posts: 4987
Loc: Havant, UK
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Quote:
If there's no ff DSLR on sale for under £1000 by the end of 2009, I will be shocked.
My thoughts exactly, current trend is that people upgrade willy nilly so I dont' see this changing much in the future. FX will be the 'next best thing' despite the glass, and if you think about it, and they have already said it of the D700 new models, will have a kit lens. So off we go again. The D3 has already proven to be extremely popular so I don't think a change of glass is going to bother those at the top end.
If I were to buy new now I'd be very nervous to pay 2k on FF when the improvements are going to come thick and fast imo.
It would be nice to think Nikon would keep their DX customers happy and this may well be a modified FF camera so quality is just as good.
Btw just how much quality is lost DX on FF?
lol Nigel I like making sweeping statements I get a direct response then
-------------------- Tanya(BSRIPN)
CastVision
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Seven..
...or maybe Eight
Reged: 03/02/2003
Posts: 4987
Loc: Havant, UK
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Quote:
Your also neglecting the idea of future technology being incorporated.
I.E a new kind of pixel/sensor that has less noise and produces sharper and punchier images. We've seen the effect of upgrading from CCD to CMOS, so what could be next?
Perhaps this is what's planned for the 4,5,600
-------------------- Tanya(BSRIPN)
CastVision
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huwevans
Old Hand
Reged: 05/08/2000
Posts: 15272
Loc: Dorset, UK
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I'm coming to this thread late, and have only skimmed through it, so apologies if I'm repeating stuff or missing significant points.
Tanya, my suspicion is that the 12mp performance of cameras like the D2X and D300 is somewhere up near the practical limit for a DX sensor. Higher resolution with good per-pixel quality is perfectly possible, but the native sensitivity at which that good performance is likely to be delivered will probably just come down and down, and I can't see too many people really needing higher resolutions so much that it's worth sacrificing higher ISO capabilities for. For myself, I already find 12mp quite high enough, given the computing power and storage space already needed to handle the files.
As for future FX cameras, I personally doubt we're going to see new 'full frame' DSLRs at the £1000 level in the near future. End of line stock, perhaps, and as Nick says we're virtually there now. But I don't see cameras being launched at that price point for a long time yet.
More generally it seems clear that the low end is where all the profit is, and that is where Nikon's resurgence against previously all-conquering Canon has been forged. So really I can't see them abandoning the DX format in the long term, or at least until there is some radical development that alters the economics of the technology enough to effectively revolutionize digital camera technology yet again. And we clearly can't accurately predict such things. They might happen, or they might not.
OTOH I suspect Nikon won't produce any more fully pro-level DX cameras. I think the D2X will prove to be the last of that line.
As for lenses, well, I'm not altogether clear what Nikon have done with regard to corner performance in the FX sensor, so it might be that many older lenses won't appear to be adequate on cameras like the D3 or the impending D700 - I really don't know. I find them perfectly acceptable on the DX format, but that obviously doesn't use the full image circle. So really I'm unsure what to expect there. Longer lenses should have no problems either way, so very possibly the market for used long-toms will firm up. But OTOH those who really want longer lenses (for stuff like wildlife and/or sports, maybe) might feel they have more interest in sticking with DX anyway.
On balance, the newer Nikon glass that has evidently been designed precisely for the D3 and other future FX Nikons seems to be so good that people are falling over themselves to get hold of it. That being the case I suspect there will continue to be a lot of bargains around for those willing to put up with 'yesterday's technology' for some time to come.
Finally - and this is a purely personal point - every new stage in the ramping up of the technology in photography makes me more and more wistful for the elegant simplicity of film and the cameras and lenses that went with it. If I were a photojournalist, or if as an amateur I expected to get much more of the sort of photographic opportunities I had in Japan last year, then I'd sell my own mother to buy a couple of D3 bodies. But as it is, the DX format Nikon D2X is about as far and as high as I expect to go in terms of digital photography.
-------------------- Huw Evans.
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