Monobod
'Phantom' of the forum!
Reged: 03/04/2003
Posts: 5772
Loc: Just West of Norwich, Norfolk
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I should, perhaps, have posted this in the lounge, but it can get a bit flippant there. I am really interested in a serious (ish) debate, so I'm here instead.
We often hear the comment, a good record shot, or nice photo but no artistic merit. What I want to know is what you think on this, does every photo have to be 'arty' to be worthwhile. If so, what is wrong with a 'record shot' be it wildlife, cityscape or whatever? 
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David.
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Photos hosted by Flickr.
www.flickr.com/photos/monobod/
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I see the world thro' a viewfinder, but the world watches me via CCTV!
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Meredith
enthusiast
Reged: 23/10/2006
Posts: 266
Loc: Coventry, UK
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Nothing wrong with 'record' shots in my opinion. I see no reason why every shot should be arty.
Was it pretension art people making the comments?
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Meredith Lewis
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OneTen
'Two Breakfasts'
Reged: 23/06/2003
Posts: 2443
Loc: Devon
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I think that sometimes 'a good record shot' is used to describe a photograph that is bland and lacks artistic merit. I would imagine that this phrase is used to be positive in some way and not be too harsh. That's how I tend to interpret it anyway.
For enjoyment, I try and take photographs that have aesthetic qualities, they may contain a record or be be educational in some way, but it's the overall artistic result that interests me. Succeeding is another matter.
In my opinion, not every photograph has to be artistic to be worthwhile . I take a lot of photographs at work that are far from artistic but for me and the organisation have a real value. Whether that be record shots of flora and fauna, fixed point photography to monitor changes in habitats or pictures to help with identification. I choose not to show them to the world.
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Richard .......... My Website - My Blog - My Flickr
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Terrywoodenpic
A whiff of silicon...
Reged: 21/01/2006
Posts: 266
Loc: Saddleworth UK
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I take the completely opposite view .
when I look at photographs from a past age, it is the record or documentary photographs that I find both more interesting and of greater appeal.
Most old club exhibition shots tend to have very little to offer either in interest or artistic merit. They are more often than not one off's with little to demonstrate to a new audience.
Of course framing and timing are important and lighting even more so.
Composition is more about shapes and textures creating interest, Than "Arty"
Technical skills demonstrate that the photographer was prepared to spend time on technique and respected his viewers.
All in all, I would prefer to see well thought out and presented Record and documentary photographs, rather than any number of self styled "artistic" works.
Of course there is nothing to stop people considering Record and Documentary work to be artistic if it merits that accolade.
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63 happy photo years from amateur to professional and back to amateur
Edited by Terrywoodenpic (20/05/2008 20:05)
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NorthernNikon
Bulls Hitter
Reged: 16/12/2005
Posts: 5613
Loc: Harrogate, North Yorks
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David, I think the problem is that the vast majority of people post shots for appraisal without specifying what they were trying to achieve. Therefore it's up to the viewer to second guess when giving their opinion.
Also, I think it's a bit of a kind way of saying 'not very good', which is actually insulting record shots which can often be very good.
My bugbear (okay, ne of them  ) are those who post family shots in appraisal forums. This site is not too bad but some others are rife with the practise. As a result, all you get is 'nice capture' or 'you sure got the little tyke's character there' when what they really should be saying is - 'Yeah, it's a snap of your son who you think is cute but as we don't know him and as the shot has no photographic merit whatsoever what do you want us to say?'
Hopefully that wasn't a too flippant repsonse. 
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www.BarneyAllen.com the new home of ComicShots.
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OneTen
'Two Breakfasts'
Reged: 23/06/2003
Posts: 2443
Loc: Devon
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Quote:
...people post shots for appraisal without specifying what they were trying to achieve...
I think that's an important point and something I'll try to do in the future.
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Richard .......... My Website - My Blog - My Flickr
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Terrywoodenpic
A whiff of silicon...
Reged: 21/01/2006
Posts: 266
Loc: Saddleworth UK
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I have no problem with people posting family shots If that is the stage they are at.
Family shots can be really interesting when done with skill and understanding.
It is all about keeping the interest of snap shotters till they learn and progress to greater skills and wider interests.
Some great photographers centred their life's work on the family scene in the widest sense.
I started to process and print my own "snaps" at age 10. I suppose I never really went though the usual amateur snapper rout, but set my sights on Photography from the start.
Others are not so lucky and have to start their learning curve much later.
As a result forums like this must expect very basic even Juvenile questions and sample photographs, from otherwise mature people.
More power to their elbow I say... even if some shots bore me out of my mind. They have to start somewhere.
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63 happy photo years from amateur to professional and back to amateur
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Terrywoodenpic
A whiff of silicon...
Reged: 21/01/2006
Posts: 266
Loc: Saddleworth UK
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Quote:
Quote:
...people post shots for appraisal without specifying what they were trying to achieve...
I think that's an important point and something I'll try to do in the future.
I am not sure that is always the case.
In many respects a shot has already failed if has not first grabbed your interest.
If it has done so, it might have and probably will raise questions in your mind, that you want answers for.
However I am not the least interested in what the photographer "intended" Or "tried to achieve" when they have patently failed the first step.
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63 happy photo years from amateur to professional and back to amateur
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OneTen
'Two Breakfasts'
Reged: 23/06/2003
Posts: 2443
Loc: Devon
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If I post in the appraisal gallery then I'm looking to receive feedback and constructive criticism. If explaining my intentions facilitate this, then surely that's a positive.
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Richard .......... My Website - My Blog - My Flickr
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NorthernNikon
Bulls Hitter
Reged: 16/12/2005
Posts: 5613
Loc: Harrogate, North Yorks
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Quote:
I have no problem with people posting family shots If that is the stage they are at.
It's not a question of the stage they are at, it's a matter of them taking a snap of their kids and wanting the world to see because it's their kid and not because they've tried to achieve anything photographically.
The vast majority of my shots are snaps of my family, but I don’t post them for appraisal because I know that’s just what they are..
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I am not sure that is always the case.
In many respects a shot has already failed if has not first grabbed your interest.
If it has done so, it might have and probably will raise questions in your mind, that you want answers for.
However I am not the least interested in what the photographer "intended" Or "tried to achieve" when they have patently failed the first step.
Of course it's not always the case, but the genral practice of posting photos with vague 'what do you think' sentiments will not illicit the most heplful of repsonses. Remember we're talking about the Appraisal room here, not the Exhibition Room. Your example is the perfect reason why photographers should post what their intentions were. You say that you're not interested if the photograph doesn't grab your immediate attention. Well what if the intention of the photographer was to create an image which on the face of it looks pretty mundane but the longer you look at it the more you discover?
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www.BarneyAllen.com the new home of ComicShots.
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BrianT
Old Hand
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 5987
Loc: Leeds
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Quote:
We often hear the comment, a good record shot, or nice photo but no artistic merit.
A comment upon which to form a judgement of the commentator, to be valued accordingly.
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Brian BSRIPN
Oh for the days when Elvis was king and everything else was a 50th @ F11.
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sjaszczak
A Real Gentleman
Reged: 08/06/2005
Posts: 1071
Loc: York
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Personally, I think it often comes down to what they were trying to achieve...and what they were thinking/feeling at the time of taking the photograph. People do afterall see different things in different photographs, while "art" has a different meaning to people depending on their viewpoint.
As others in here have said, when seeking appraisal, I do think it is worth saying what you were trying to achieve....otherwise the comments of the people in there are likely to be completely irrelevant to you.
I do sometimes feel that those who do "judge" other people's photographs are all to quick to jump to conclusions and critise because it doesn't fit with their idea of "art".
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Steve
My Flickr
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BrianT
Old Hand
Reged: 16/05/2001
Posts: 5987
Loc: Leeds
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Quote:
I do think it is worth saying what you were trying to achieve....otherwise the comments of the people in there are likely to be completely irrelevant to you.
I thought a picture was supposed to be worth a thousand words.
The trouble is most of us possess very very little artistic talent. But loads of us talk a good talk.
I also find the casual record photographs of everyday things much more interesting than most peoples attempts at the so called artistic, whatever that might mean.
Edited by BrianT (21/05/2008 08:23)
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Terrywoodenpic
A whiff of silicon...
Reged: 21/01/2006
Posts: 266
Loc: Saddleworth UK
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Quote:
Quote:
I do think it is worth saying what you were trying to achieve....otherwise the comments of the people in there are likely to be completely irrelevant to you.
I thought a picture was supposed to be worth a thousand words.
The trouble is most of us possess very very little artistic talent. But loads of us talk a good talk.
I also find the casual record photographs of everyday things much more interesting than most peoples attempts at the so called artistic, whatever that might mean.
I agree with all three of those comments...
I think Photography has fallen into the trap of Conceptual Art.
This requires the "long caption" giving the purpose and idea behind the artist's thinking for creating the work.
Once separated from the work, the creation fails.
I suspect it will follow some other forms of "modern Art and music" so that like them conceptual art will be consigned to oblivion.
I know Conceptual descriptions are both expected and required at exhibitions of student photographers work these days.
Intention is important to the photographer, but it is not a part of the finished achievement. I for one can well do with out "long captions" which are mostly pretentious conceptual rubbish.
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63 happy photo years from amateur to professional and back to amateur
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Terrywoodenpic
A whiff of silicon...
Reged: 21/01/2006
Posts: 266
Loc: Saddleworth UK
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Quote:
If I post in the appraisal gallery then I'm looking to receive feedback and constructive criticism. If explaining my intentions facilitate this, then surely that's a positive.
When I was at photographic college in the 50's
every Friday afternoon was reserved for the whole schools criticism of our weeks work.
It was criticised [in the best sense) on what was presented, not what was intended. These sessions taught us many things , not least amongst them, to be self critical of our work.
In the real world, it is too late if your client can find fault with, or thinks you have not covered His brief.
He is not the least interested in your Intentions.
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63 happy photo years from amateur to professional and back to amateur
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OneTen
'Two Breakfasts'
Reged: 23/06/2003
Posts: 2443
Loc: Devon
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Quote:
I for one can well do with out "long captions" which are mostly pretentious conceptual rubbish.
My sentiments exactly.
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In the real world, it is too late if your client can find fault with, or thinks you have not covered His brief. He is not the least interested in your Intentions.
Most of us here don't have clients, photography is simply for fun and by posting in the appraisal gallery we're looking for feedback from like minded people. Surely there's no harm in giving an indication of your intentions for people to determine whether you succeeded or not.
Trying to be artistic doesn't necessarily mean being conceptual or fine art. I try to come up with a photograph that's pleasing aesthetically using composition, colour, texture, tone etc. I really don't think there's anything pretentious in that.
As for record shots, I love looking at old photographs for their content alone. I copied and printed old images of Blackpool for a local historian's book and they were fascinating.
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Richard .......... My Website - My Blog - My Flickr
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NorthernNikon
Bulls Hitter
Reged: 16/12/2005
Posts: 5613
Loc: Harrogate, North Yorks
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Quote:
When I was at photographic college in the 50's
I think you might find that things have moved on since then, for example 'wireless' is no longer something to listen to the home service on and 'gay' doesn't necessarily mean happy.
Apart from the fact that we're over half a century on, this isn't a college, it's an open forum for photographers of vastly differing standards. Posting for appraisal doesn't just benefit those who post, it also give those who aspire the opportunity to evaluate others' works and see how they could use similar techniques in their own. The concept of requiring a photo to stand up on it's own falls down when the photographer doesn't really know what they're doing, and by the very nature of photography forums there's a lot of that about. So, if the photographer doesn't know, how the hell is the viewer supposed to be able to tell?
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www.BarneyAllen.com the new home of ComicShots.
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Monobod
'Phantom' of the forum!
Reged: 03/04/2003
Posts: 5772
Loc: Just West of Norwich, Norfolk
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Thank you all for your comments, this is an interesting discussion. One point I would raise regarding posting images. Do you think, like me, that information such as lens setting, aperture, shutter speed and ISO should be quoted. This will help the evaluation process perhaps. If someone wants critical comment, this can form part of the equation.
I also find 'record shots' of places very interesting. Places change over the years and documentary type images can be of great interest in later years, both historically and personally to remind us of our roots.
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David.
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Photos hosted by Flickr.
www.flickr.com/photos/monobod/
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I see the world thro' a viewfinder, but the world watches me via CCTV!
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john_g
Pooh-bah Hoo-ha
Reged: 09/05/2007
Posts: 2365
Loc: Surrey
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At my local club, you can feel the tension if a visiting judge is foolish enough to say "... just a record shot". I think a photograph that captures the essence of the subject is always going to stand out, even if the picture is a straight shot of what was there. But I do feel that photographs that could have been taken by anyone who pointed a camera is the same direction are going to struggle to capture people's attention. The difference between a boring photograph and a really interesting one is that the former are generally taken by someone who expects the camera to magically capture the mood of the place, whilst the latter are usually taken by people who know exactly what they want the final image to look like.
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John
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom - Anais Nin.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/john_gass
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NorthernNikon
Bulls Hitter
Reged: 16/12/2005
Posts: 5613
Loc: Harrogate, North Yorks
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Quote:
Do you think, like me, that information such as lens setting, aperture, shutter speed and ISO should be quoted. This will help the evaluation process perhaps. If someone wants critical comment, this can form part of the equation.
I would say a reserved yes. Reserved because in the case of beginners you might see where changing the ISO, aperture or shutter speed might have imporved the shot, but it runs the risk of them thinkig that only f/2.8 leneses or the latest high ISO or high FPS DSLR will do.
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www.BarneyAllen.com the new home of ComicShots.
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