Damien Demolder
(Tharg the Mighty)
24/03/2008 10:36
NEW POLL - photography in public places

What with the police, community support officers and security men all becoming much more interested in photographers, do you feel it is more likely now that you will be prevented from taking pictures in a public place?

We've heard plenty of stories of our readers and professional photographers being stopped and questioned, and even detained, for taking pictures in quite normal places, but we want to hear how you feel when you go out. Have you been stopped, and do you feel there is a good chance you will be stopped? Does a fear of being stopped curb your activities in any way?

Head to the Home Page to vote, and discuss your experiences in this thread.

Thanks

damien


Lounge Lizard
(Old Wrinkly)
24/03/2008 10:51
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

It makes me more determined than ever to assert my rights to take the pictures where it is legal to do so. I do not want my freedoms as a law-abiding citizen and photographer to be curtailed by so-called knee-jerking. The issue is with educating the public and the police. The understanding should not be one of 'terrorists may use cameras, therefore all photographers are terrorists'.

jchrisc
()
24/03/2008 11:52
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Yes I have been stopped, by a PCSO and the stop included a threat to confiscate my camera if I did not stop taking pictures.

I politely "saw off" the PCSO by asking him to bring a police constable and I subsequently wrote to the local Chief Constable, but never got a satisfactory response. The essence of the reply that I received was that the matter had been investigated and the PCSO "has been found to have acted according to his duties".

The incident would not stop me from taking pictures in public in future and indeed I have since taken many pictures around the location at which I was stopped.


Dave_Cox
(old'n'grumpy)
24/03/2008 14:00
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

I psoted recently on a web forum for PCSOs, and this was the response to photography in public:

"You're free to take photographs and if directed to do otherwise, just ask for the legal power or Act and Section from which the PC or PCSO believes they derive their power."

"I'm not 100% sure what powers of seizure PCSOs have nowadays - but I know that PCs would not necessarily need a search warrant to seize your equipent in some circumstances; if you look up Section 19 of Police and Criminal Evidence Act, you'll see that the powers to seize items is quite far ranging.

I'm pretty sure that S.19 PACE doesn't apply to CSOs though"

"Unless criminal enquiries or terror related, then NO right to confiscater or delete any pictures, whatsoever. However it doesn't stop you asking to see the pictures to determine for yourself. We get these very day on the railway and airports. Also no right to ask someone to stop filiming you in public ( railway stations are all private property and as long as it's not for commercial gain, selling to the papers or a mag, photoshoot etc, ) then it's not illegal, bearing in mind parents don't like their kids being filmed, especially at swimming pools and parks."

I'm going to carry on taking photographs, and take the proffered advice if stopped - after all the quotes above are from PCSOs, (two from the Met area and one from South London.)


Burgy
(Grateful not to have one)
24/03/2008 14:16
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

Also no right to ask someone to stop filiming you in public ( railway stations are all private property and as long as it's not for commercial gain, selling to the papers or a mag, photoshoot etc, ) then it's not illegal,




That is bollox, commercial gain is irrelevant, unless it is a specific rule of the owner of the private property owner. The PCSOs also cannot enforce it as they are not a representative of the owner, if I was approached by a pCSO and told to stop, I would demand that a representative of the owners make themsleves known to me. As for the reference to selling to the newspapers, even Ken Livingstones Nazis in Trafalgar Square won't try and stop a press photographer taking pics, it is not considered commercial photography.


john_g
(Pooh-bah Hoo-ha)
24/03/2008 16:54
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Recently I was taking photographs of a delapidated building in Croydon and was accosted by two burly and slightly aggressive drunks. They told me "ish illurgal to potogruff n publake" but I looked them in the ever-so glazed eye whilst gripping the camera tightly in a ready-to-swing position, and told them they were talking botox. After a while their attention fixed on someone else and they staggered off. Perhaps they were the Sweeney?

john_g
(Pooh-bah Hoo-ha)
24/03/2008 16:57
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

By the way Damien, in the poll question, don't you mean 'likely' rather than 'like'?

And, if AP ever needs a copy-righter, can I have the job please?


Lounge Lizard
(Old Wrinkly)
24/03/2008 17:13
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

Yes I have been stopped, by a PCSO and the stop included a threat to confiscate my camera if I did not stop taking pictures.



My first line of 'defence' against such an approach would be to politely ask if they are familiar with the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 Code B relating to seizure of property and ask to see their card outlining their powers as a PCSO. Their seizure powers are limited to tobacco and alcohol from minors, vehicles used to cause alarm and distress (joyriders), and to the seizure of prohibited articles found during a search when accompanied by a police constable.

If they wish to do a stop and search of a pedestrian under the Terrorism Act 2000 or later amendments, it can only be done in the presence of a police constable and a PCSO can only detain you for up to 30 minutes to establish your identity (or wait for a PC to arrive) if you have committed an offence. As far as I can see in PACE, there is absolutely no mention of the taking of a photograph in a public place as being an offence.


AlanW
()
24/03/2008 17:32
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

I voted 'no'. I've been shooting openly on the streets of Edinburgh most weekends for the last 12 or so years without any trouble, mind you with so many tourists around no-one pays any heed to someone with a camera.






chris000
(veteran)
24/03/2008 17:43
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

I voted yes because I believe the likelihood of being stopped has increased, but to be honest I've not had any actual trouble so far. This might be because most of my photography is 'rural' but I do also live in an area surrounded by military installations and camps so have always had an 'awareness' of what I'm pointing my camera at.

I would not photograph children because I think it is simply asking for trouble in the current climate - this doesn't bother me much because I hate kids anyway (I'm not a proud parent - you can tell can't you ) - but I do think it is a real shame that we have arrived at a point where I even have to think about it


Dave_Cox
(old'n'grumpy)
24/03/2008 18:29
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

By the way Damien, in the poll question, don't you mean 'likely' rather than 'like'?

And, if AP ever needs a copy-righter, can I have the job please?




Copy-righter???? writer


john_g
(Pooh-bah Hoo-ha)
24/03/2008 18:31
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

Quote:

By the way Damien, in the poll question, don't you mean 'likely' rather than 'like'?

And, if AP ever needs a copy-righter, can I have the job please?




Copy-righter???? writer




I know what I meant! Perhaps I should have put [sick] after it?


daft_biker
(Action Man!)
24/03/2008 18:47
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

I voted no too Suspect this poll applies more to those taking photographs in England though....nae luck

Bawbee
(Out on a whim)
24/03/2008 19:43
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Alan,

Is that a 'Blue-Meanie' booking the Polis?


Bawbee
(Out on a whim)
24/03/2008 19:45
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

By the way Damien, in the poll question, don't you mean 'likely' rather than 'like'?

And, if AP ever needs a copy-righter, can I have the job please?




Copy-righter???? writer




I know what I meant! Perhaps I should have put [sick] after it?



No, No John, Stet will do fine


Mr_Geoff
(tog with no title)
24/03/2008 20:48
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Yes, I feel it's more likely I'll get inconvenienced by either PCSOs or idiots, but it's not going to stop me!

AlanW
()
24/03/2008 22:18
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

Is that a 'Blue-Meanie' booking the Polis?




Yep, taken outside the Crown Office in Chambers Street,
the Evening News ran it with a story a week or so ago


Footloose
(Carpal \'Tunnel)
25/03/2008 09:27
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

I've said it before and I'll say it again, until people take this issue into the Courts, where the do's, don't and procedures regarding how we are treated is formally clarified, we will continue to hear many more complaints. However, those who have threatened to do this so far, have settled out of court, and that just might point to the possibility that the powers being used, are indeed beyond the margins of what would be deemed unreasonable, and there are agencies who do not want that to happen. There have been instances in the past where legislation has been brought in and subsequently rules have been imposed as to what is and is not a reasonable manner in which to treat individuals.

The fact that professional photographers and journalists felt that they needed to get their 'Rights' clarified and set down in black and white, seems to indicate that something similar needs to be done regarding 'Joe Public' too. I fully accept that the perceived threat of Terrorist activity means that levels of security need uprating and officers etc need to be a lot more vigilant, but that does not mean they are also entitled to act in the heavy-handed and unpleasantly officious manner that some think they can. It seems to me that the authorities have been given these powers, but have not (or do not want) cast in stone, (or on paper) a formalised structure regarding how 'suspects' are treated.

Detective Chief Inspector Mark Lawrence has said he "Will 'encourage officers at ground level to adopt a more sensible approach when considering whether to stop photographers and other Londoners who are in the vicinity of transport networks.", but I would say to him that 'encouragement is not what is needed, but rather a formal set of 'Rules of engagement'.


Tacitus
(History)
25/03/2008 12:55
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

There's an opportunity to tell the National Socialists, Oops "New Labour" what you think about "Community Policing" (PCSOs etc), on their "Discussion" web pages - though this page may not be live for very long.

APchris
(Pooh-Bah)
25/03/2008 16:47
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

I've not experienced any problems, but then I don't feel comfortable taking pics on the street so only rarely take those types of images - probably due to the fear of being challenged after reading here and in AP about the problems other togs have had!

Hotblack
(Dead Horse Flogger)
25/03/2008 16:56
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

Yes, I feel it's more likely I'll get inconvenienced by either PCSOs or idiots, but it's not going to stop me!




^WHS^

If anything it will make me more determined to take photographs.


bagpuss
(Prolific Pam)
25/03/2008 23:48
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

I was stopped by a PC once in The City, who was very friendly, asked a few questions, and let me on my way.

To be honest I have never felt hesitant to go anywhere with my camera, or take photographs of anyone or anything.


John_K
(addict)
26/03/2008 11:10
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

I psoted recently on a web forum for PCSOs, and this was the response to photography in public:

"You're free to take photographs and if directed to do otherwise, just ask for the legal power or Act and Section from which the PC or PCSO believes they derive their power."

"I'm not 100% sure what powers of seizure PCSOs have nowadays - but I know that PCs would not necessarily need a search warrant to seize your equipent in some circumstances; if you look up Section 19 of Police and Criminal Evidence Act, you'll see that the powers to seize items is quite far ranging.

I'm pretty sure that S.19 PACE doesn't apply to CSOs though"

"Unless criminal enquiries or terror related, then NO right to confiscater or delete any pictures, whatsoever. However it doesn't stop you asking to see the pictures to determine for yourself. We get these very day on the railway and airports. Also no right to ask someone to stop filiming you in public ( railway stations are all private property and as long as it's not for commercial gain, selling to the papers or a mag, photoshoot etc, ) then it's not illegal, bearing in mind parents don't like their kids being filmed, especially at swimming pools and parks."

I'm going to carry on taking photographs, and take the proffered advice if stopped - after all the quotes above are from PCSOs, (two from the Met area and one from South London.)




I particular the section about photographs on railways. Have a look at the website of the British Transport Police. In that they state there is NO objection to photogaphy on the railways with the proviso that you avoid the security cameras and do not have tripods close to platform edges. Both very sensible suggestions.


Ian_A
(Avocadopearaphobe)
26/03/2008 13:37
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

I particular the section about photographs on railways. Have a look at the website of the British Transport Police. In that they state there is NO objection to photogaphy on the railways with the proviso that you avoid the security cameras and do not have tripods close to platform edges. Both very sensible suggestions.




A quick word with the stationmaster is the approach I use.

One charged me - a kiss from my model ...


NorthernNikon
(Bulls Hitter)
26/03/2008 15:03
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

One charged me - a kiss from my model ...




Well, it takes all sorts ...

Click to view

Moderators Note: Your photo has been change to a link for two reasons:
1 - 640 pixels
2 - Ugly are a bit protective of their images and their clients. I know this as I've done work for them


downfader
(Mr Judgemental)
26/03/2008 16:33
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

What with the police, community support officers and security men all becoming much more interested in photographers, do you feel it is more likely now that you will be prevented from taking pictures in a public place?

We've heard plenty of stories of our readers and professional photographers being stopped and questioned, and even detained, for taking pictures in quite normal places, but we want to hear how you feel when you go out. Have you been stopped, and do you feel there is a good chance you will be stopped? Does a fear of being stopped curb your activities in any way?

Head to the Home Page to vote, and discuss your experiences in this thread.

Thanks

damien




Its not just us lot with the slrs now, its the tourists too. I'm sure the tourist boards who bring them over are really pleased with these people wandering up and scaring the bejesus out of their customers. I know people who've seen the tourists stopped and searched - the assumption with the public is now that "they must have done something wrong, or the policeman wouldnt be talking to them" (I get into this conversation at work a lot, can you tell)

I'm gonna keep taking photos. Its a hobby for crying-out-loud. And if they lock me up I'll sue for every penny I can get


downfader
(Mr Judgemental)
26/03/2008 16:49
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

I fully accept that the perceived threat of Terrorist activity means that levels of security need uprating and officers etc need to be a lot more vigilant




Hmm, call me a sceptic but I'm not sure we are at more of a risk thesedays. This isnt Bali and we've had few major incidents really go-off compared to other countries, and even compared to the Northern Ireland troubles. I remember as a kid being evacuated from a few places (shops, school once) because someone had phone the rozzers and said "theres a bomb now go find it" LOL!! Or someone had left a bag near a pub, etc.


cpfc12
(newbie)
27/03/2008 17:07
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

My guess is that the majority of people who have been intimidated by authority, private or otherwise, are those carrying pretty obvious kit around with them. Nothing wrong in that, and why shouldn't we!
The whole thing falls apart and begins to look pathetic when one realises that someone up to no good is probably using a phone camera with umpteen thousand pixels and sending them straight to Pakistan or where-ever.
Absolutely typical of the times we live in.
For what it's worth I voted yes.


Geordie_F1
(newbie)
27/03/2008 22:10
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

I've never had any problem & would (will) not stop taking pictures in public places.

ontheradar
(newbie)
30/03/2008 02:13
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

I got pulled up by the security at Canary Wharf two years ago. They demanded to see my images and enquired to what use I wanted to put them to.

I told them I was merely intrigued to be at that site with my first really decent camera and that images were for private use.

They explained that CW is a private estate and as such they had every right to prevent me from taking more pictures there.

I left pretty quickly.

Nowadays I have a buddy who works there and can get a photographers pass via him.

I did feel very put out to feel a "terrorist suspect" in my own country, but can see some of the concerns that give rise to the response.


beejaybee
(Marvin)
30/03/2008 09:51
Re: NEW POLL - photography in public places

Quote:

I did feel very put out to feel a "terrorist suspect" in my own country, but can see some of the concerns that give rise to the response.



Hmmm. Let's put it this way. I don't mind being asked what I'm doing, or even being made to demonstrate that I'm not carrying weapons. But a camera is useless as a weapon (except as a low-grade bludgeon); the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle notwithstanding, and unless our understanding of the physical world is completely and totally incorrect, passively capturing an image of an object as large as a building, a person or even a small insect is not going to make any measurable difference to the object being photographed.

A prohibition on flash photography, for the comfort and convenience of bystanders, does make a lot of sense. But not under the guise of the "War On Terror". Which is no such thing; it's an assault on individual freedom with no measurable benefit in security.



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