| Damien Demolder |
| (Tharg the Mighty) |
| 01/03/2008 17:23 |
Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Go to the Home page to let us know which you think we will see first - a full frame Leica M or Leica R. Do you think a full frame M will even be possible - and if so how big will it be?
Thanks for playing
damien
| Benchista |
| (Wich Tyler) |
| 01/03/2008 17:24 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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And how many CEOs will Leica go through before we get either?
| Tacitus |
| (History) |
| 01/03/2008 20:44 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Ok, Damien, I’ll play … Only 'cos there’s nothing on the TV
Answer to question:
Full-frame digital M could/should appear first: if it's a poor camera it'll destroy Leica almost overnight. If it's a good one almost every M-user will want one and most would probably buy one. Size is constrained only by the lens design (backfocus), and isnt' a critical matter.
A digital-R should be the 'new R3' - that is a Canon-Leica collaboration. But there are some really big issues to address with an AF-capable (presumably) digital-R compared to a 'simpler' manual focussing digital M.
However, both are high risk strategies in so many ways.
I want a full-frame digital M (FFDM) that renders satisfactory super-wide images with lenses from 28mm to 12mm. If I can get satisfactory quality & resolution for exhibition work I really won't care too much about the size of the sensor. Cumulative cost is a big issue, so I will want to use lenses from Leica, Voigtlander and Zeiss - without undue technical or performance compromises, etc. But I also want to use all my old M & LTM Leica, Canon, Konica, Nikon, and Voigtlander lenses without cropping, so full-frame inevitably becomes the holy grail.
This is what users on various forums are shouting for, but should Leica take any notice? After all, most of 'us' are more committed to the secondhand lens market than the new lens market - clearly not satisfactory for Leica Camera AG - enter the Summarits.
I also want more functionality in an M9(etc) than the M8 offers, like evaluative metering & AF confirmation. Technically a full-frame digital-M sounds like a bit of a nightmare regarding integration of M lenses, especially wides. It would clearly be expensive to develop, but could have a potentially large, well-established niche market of M-users willing to upgrade to a digital body. Return on investment would probably be fair, since the product life-span could be quite long, unless Zeiss or Voigtlander queer the pitch with a full-frame digital-ZM or VM first ... and providing there are no more technical glitches.
A digital-R is a different ball-game: put bluntly what's the point? Is it just pandering to the vociferous minority, or is there really a viable market for yet another expensive pro-spec DSLR? I don't think so.
| beejaybee |
| (Marvin) |
| 01/03/2008 23:11 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
Full-frame digital M could/should appear first: if it's a poor camera it'll destroy Leica almost overnight. If it's a good one almost every M-user will want one and most would probably buy one. Size is constrained only by the lens design (backfocus), and isnt' a critical matter.
Agree up to the last phrase. IMO Leica rangefinders are defined by their compact size and build quality. If the thing gets much bigger, why bother, go SLR instead.
Quote:
A digital-R should be the 'new R3' - that is a Canon-Leica collaboration.
Why? Does no-one except Canon have anything to contribute? (Spoken as a Canon user!)
Quote:
I want a full-frame digital M (FFDM) that renders satisfactory super-wide images with lenses from 28mm to 12mm.
Certainly the wide angle field is the area where rangefinders have traditionally been strongest - the short backfocus makes WA lenses much more compact than SLR fitting lenses of the same focal length can hope to be, whilst viewfinder parallax and DoF previewing become non-issues at short focal lengths. Unfortunately it's also the area in which the optical geometry will cause most difficulty with getting a full frame sensor to work well. I don't believe they are impossible to overcome, but whether funding will permit a solution before the market evaporates is very much more of an open question.
And, let's face it, the market will evaporate if the product is delayed much longer. Leica may be able to survive as a manufacturer of premium film-based cameras for a while yet, but the digital market is rapidly going elsewhere.
Quote:
A digital-R is a different ball-game: put bluntly what's the point? Is it just pandering to the vociferous minority, or is there really a viable market for yet another expensive pro-spec DSLR? I don't think so.
The market is not exactly awash with full frame DSLR models. In fact the current range across all manufacturers totals exactly three models. I think there may be room for another, especially if it was high quality and distinctive. Manual focus with conventional dial controls perhaps? Not everyone's cup of tea, granted, but the people who want auto everything are well catered for by current models.
| SqueamishOssifrage |
| (veteran) |
| 02/03/2008 06:55 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
Manual focus with conventional dial controls perhaps?
Now, one of those would be enough to get me to go digital - so I voted R (dream on
).
| Footloose |
| (Carpal \'Tunnel) |
| 02/03/2008 10:26 |
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DSLR then DRF ... However, with the DRF, there are a range of huge optical and mechanical challenges. Unless someone finds a way of resolving the optical one with a revolutionary optical design, or a Sensor is developed which is far less sensitive to light impacting on it at much more oblique angles than current Sensors do, maybe Leitz's only option is a wholly new DRF. The die-hard traditionalists may not accept such a beast, whilst those with more open minds, could well receive it with open arms.
| Clodhopper |
| (Manyana) |
| 02/03/2008 10:56 |
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Why is there not a "don't care" button for the unenlightened who don't know what a Leica M or R is?
| beejaybee |
| (Marvin) |
| 02/03/2008 11:27 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
Why is there not a "don't care" button
Why is there not an "I'm not voting" button either?
| Dave_Cox |
| (old'n'grumpy) |
| 02/03/2008 13:02 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Slightly accademic question anyway - I can't afford a 20year old Leica R or M; let alone a full-frame digi version!
| hhmr |
| () |
| 02/03/2008 15:25 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
......which you think we will see first - a full frame Leica M or Leica R. Do you think a full frame M will even be possible - and if so how big will it be?...........
Damien,
After following the correspondence about sensor sizes and image quality in Mike Johnson's "OnlinePhotographer" blog I wonder if 'full frame' ought to be the question? Given that existing small sensors are producing a quality 1920s movie film couldn't reach and that sensor design is by no means static surely a new super wide lens or two is all Leica need if they stick with existing sensor sizes. Leica rangefinders have two valuable characteristics. They are very small and Leica lenses are excellent. I bought a IIIg with a 50mm Summicron in 1959 and still use them (now in conjunction with a scanner). Nothing else I've used since is any better, except when long lenses are needed, though some items certainly are a bit more convenient. So perhaps Leica's best bet would be to push on with steady improvements to the M8 using the existing size sensor.
I'd have thought Leica had missed the boat with large DSLRs anyway. For those who must use long lenses, bulk and weight may not matter but not everyone needs that sort of thing. Perhaps 4/3 really might be Leica's best way forward if they could engineer something which really is much better than a clone, not just a bit better and much more expensive.
Meanwhile for those who really need huge images even 'Full Frame' sensors may be on the small side.
I do hope Leica get it right.
Henry
| beejaybee |
| (Marvin) |
| 02/03/2008 16:03 |
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Quote:
So perhaps Leica's best bet would be to push on with steady improvements to the M8 using the existing size sensor.
I think you miss the point that smaller sensors "stretch" wide angle lenses; losing the ultra wide end is not going to be popular with RF users because, as I've mentioned above, wide angle is where rangefinders have their advantages. IMHO this is much more of an issue than sheer megapixels or even low-light performance; Leica users have a flying start there anyway, with those beautiful fast prime lenses.
| chris000 |
| (veteran) |
| 02/03/2008 16:10 |
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Whichever it is (if either) it will be horrendously overpriced and talked about endlessly by the Leica cognoscenti who seem to like cameras more than they like photography.
| Tacitus |
| (History) |
| 02/03/2008 17:26 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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TV last night was boring ... but tonight the film "Windtalkers" is on ...
| hhmr |
| () |
| 02/03/2008 17:48 |
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Quote:
.........I think you miss the point that smaller sensors "stretch" wide angle lenses........
No, not at all. But there would be a requirement to design one or two new very wide angle lenses to make up for the difference. At a guess that would be a whole lot less difficult than trying to get a full size sensor to work with existing lenses which were not designed with shiny digital sensors in mind.
Mind you I'm not sure how big that market really is. I have a Voigtlander 21mm lens which I like very much and which I use with my film Leicas (I also have an MP) but personally I don't find I use it nearly as often as longer lenses.
Henry
| topoxforddoc |
| (newbie) |
| 02/03/2008 17:46 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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The R will come first. The R10 (or whatever it's called) is rumoured to be shown at Photokina in the Autumn. As for the M9, that seems a while off yet.
As for a fully fledged DSLR with manual focus and dials, well there's my R9/DMR; ok it's not full frame, but the images it produces are just fabulous.
I'd like a digital M, but I quite like using film still. It also means I can continue teaching my seven year old son darkroom skills. He thinks that silver prints are magic, which they surely are.
Charlie
| hhmr |
| () |
| 02/03/2008 18:06 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
Whichever it is (if either) it will be horrendously overpriced and talked about endlessly by the Leica cognoscenti who seem to like cameras more than they like photography.
Chris,
Hate to agree but I'm afraid you've got a point!
The company now has a digital rangefinder that works, after no end of a struggle and at a price. I have a feeling their money would be better spent building an extra wide angle lens to compensate for the difference in size between film and sensor than going for full frame camera. After all, what we call 'full frame' is only that because it was a convenient compromise at the time of the original film camera design. The Leica engineers must sometimes feel that the excessive zeal of the Leica fan club is one of their biggest problems!
Henry
PS I do actually use mine! Since neither have that horribly naff red dot I can do so without embarrassment.
| AGW |
| () |
| 03/03/2008 08:17 |
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There usually is a "dont care button" in this type of poll????
Graeme
| NorthernNikon |
| (Bulls Hitter) |
| 03/03/2008 08:44 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
There usually is a "dont care button" in this type of poll????
There certainly should be. Whichever comes first, you can bet your mortgage on the fact that it will be overpriced and under specced.
What I'd really like is a full frame digital version of the Xpan but the chances of that happening?
| beejaybee |
| (Marvin) |
| 03/03/2008 09:08 |
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Quote:
What I'd really like is a full frame digital version of the Xpan but the chances of that happening?
With a 24x67mm sensor? Nice...
... but someone would have to lend the factory a reel of lead-free solder
| Benchista |
| (Wich Tyler) |
| 03/03/2008 09:19 |
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Overpriced? Probably. Underspecced? Probably not. The whole point of a Leica - any Leica - is that it's a simple tool with no more nor less than the features required to do the job.
I think a full-frame R is more likely first simply because it's a much simpler engineering challenge. We'll see.
| Zou |
| (Pooh-Bah) |
| 03/03/2008 09:22 |
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I said R too. There aren't that many full frame DSLRs anyway, so they'd be sure to gobble of a decent sized chunk of the market from people who like the brand more than they do Canon/Nikon. I'm sure there a still a lot of people with R lenses waiting for a chance to bring them back into action.
The full frame M would not be worth as much to the company in the short term I think, and as has already been suggested, a couple of ultra wide lenses designed for the current sensor would be a more sensible stop gap.
| photo_paul |
| (newbie) |
| 03/03/2008 15:21 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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please add me to the 'who cares' vote.
| nspur |
| (enthusiast) |
| 03/03/2008 15:47 |
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Perhaps Zeiss will get Cosina to make a FF M-mount.
| Benchista |
| (Wich Tyler) |
| 03/03/2008 15:49 |
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Quote:
please add me to the 'who cares' vote.
Fascinating the number of people who feel the need to register the fact that they don't care...
| El Sid |
| (Going potty) |
| 03/03/2008 17:46 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
Fascinating the number of people who feel the need to register the fact that they don't care...
And you can probably add me to the list...
Doesn't matter which comes first because judging by recent history either they'll...
a) make a pigs breakfast of it...
b) get a total ear bashing from the Leica freaks who think moving away from the screw mount was too much pandering to technology - and probably never actually use their cameras anyway...
| hhmr |
| () |
| 04/03/2008 17:20 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
............get a total ear bashing from the Leica freaks who think moving away from the screw mount was too much pandering to technology - and probably never actually use their cameras anyway...........
It is amazing what resentment the brand generates, or more likely some of it's enthusiasts generate! I can remember standing in a Jessops a while back when a customer mentioned the L word and everyone else in the queue with him went into rant mode. Quite funny really! And the sad thing is there really are people who buy two or three at a time then just put them unopened in the safe and wait for their value to increase (or so a specialist dealer assured me). For a concept which, give or take a few refinements and ignoring the Rs and the clones, is 80 or 90 years old that's quite an achievement. Nice cameras to use though and they don't seem to wear out.
| topoxforddoc |
| (newbie) |
| 04/03/2008 20:45 |
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It is funny that the L word induces resentment. To be honest, I thought L kit was a load of overpriced whatever for a long time. I had been a long term Pentax M user with 2 MXs and a couple of older Spotmatics at home. When my Mother died back in the 1990s, I was left a bit of money (not much) and decided to buy a Leica M6TTL with a 50/2 Summicron to see what all the fuss was about. I had never picked up a Leica M before, although I did use my Uncle's Leicaflex SL back in the 1980s. I develop my own film and to my astonishment, I marvelled at the quality of the negs and prints shot on my new camera. They were just so much better than what I got from my PKA and PKM lenses. Since then, I've carried on and now enjoy and use cameras that I will be able to pass on to my children. My seven year old enjoys working in the darkroom and I hope he will be able to get as much enjoyment out of them as I get now. I certainly don't lock mine in a safe. They get used and abused. Some have even had to go back for repairs after dropping them from a great height.
To be honest, it doesn't matter what one uses, as one gets the enjoyment that this great hobby offers everyone.
Charlie
| AntSmith |
| (member) |
| 04/03/2008 21:08 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
get a total ear bashing from the Leica freaks who think moving away from the screw mount was too much pandering to technology
So I'm using a IIIb - just about the only Leica I've ever been able to afford!!! So I'm sticking with screw-mount for price not because I'm a technology ludite (I have a D200 also..)
With a 35mm Summicron attached the whole camera slips neatly in a pocket and travels with me evry day. Just having a camera with wonderful optics in your pocket everyday (and not some horrible compact...) makes it worth every penny and moment of frustration with its odd old fashioned ways.
Now a full frame Leica III would be interesting - the M series cameras are too big aren't they?
| El Sid |
| (Going potty) |
| 05/03/2008 12:30 |
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Quote:
Quote:
get a total ear bashing from the Leica freaks who think moving away from the screw mount was too much pandering to technology
So I'm using a IIIb - just about the only Leica I've ever been able to afford!!! So I'm sticking with screw-mount for price not because I'm a technology ludite (I have a D200 also..)
So you've missed the point...
| hhmr |
| () |
| 06/03/2008 12:52 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
............So you've missed the point...
Perhaps the post did miss the original point raised by Damien, but the thread had long since drifted off topic. I think what the original question showed was that those who hate the brand, love winding up its enthusiasts, and don't care about the answer to Damien's question, just about balance those who do care what happens to Leica and have views about what would be for the best.
| El Sid |
| (Going potty) |
| 06/03/2008 13:03 |
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Quote:Quote:
............So you've missed the point...
Perhaps the post did miss the original point raised by Damien, but the thread had long since drifted off topic. I think what the original question showed was that those who hate the brand, love winding up its enthusiasts, and don't care about the answer to Damien's question, just about balance those who do care what happens to Leica and have views about what would be for the best.
Wrong...
What tends to happen is that we wind up the posers and gear freaks who buy Leica to show off or collect as an 'investment' rather than using them as Herr Barnak and Herr Leitz intended... People who are far more interested in what the serial number is and whether it's as original or unmodified than actually putting a film through it. There's an honest tradition here of pricking at the pompous and pretentious...
| hhmr |
| () |
| 06/03/2008 15:52 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
Wrong...
...........an honest tradition here of pricking at the pompous and pretentious...
Nigel,
I didn't detect anything pompous or pretentious in the post from a IIIb user which you attacked, or in any of the earlier posts come to that. Snobbery is always a bit of a pain but so too is it's inverse.
Henry
| El Sid |
| (Going potty) |
| 06/03/2008 17:13 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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I never attacked anyone, it's not my fault if he missed the point of my post...
I merely pointed out that based on their recent history Leica could well end up either repeating the delays and/or failing to address major quality issues that bedevilled both the DMR and M8 - not to mention the bizarre antics surrounding the late CEO's termination - and end up looking foolish yet again. Alternatively they take a major step forward and still get hammered by a hard core of fanatical obsessives who seem to take it personally if Leica dare to change anything about their cameras or system.
For some reason the Leica brand seems to attract the worst, most over sensitive, fanboys possible who, while happy to criticise Leica whenever they feel like it, turn like rabid dogs on anyone else who dares make even the most minor criticism of the camera or company. Now if there are those on the forum who fall into that category then the problem is theirs not mine...
Funny too how the person I 'attacked' seems not to have taken anywhere near the offence you are determined to show...
| huwevans |
| (Old Hand) |
| 06/03/2008 18:17 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Moderator: okay gentlemen - let's drop this one now please. Move on.
| Scphoto |
| (Little Fruitbat) |
| 07/03/2008 01:29 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:
Fascinating the number of people who feel the need to register the fact that they don't care...
Sort of another one, more of a I've no idea about Leica stuff.
| Tacitus |
| (History) |
| 07/03/2008 17:50 |
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Why post then?
| AGW |
| () |
| 07/03/2008 21:20 |
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Why not...I think the last time there was a poll about a new camera, (was it a fuji medium format?)there was a "dont care, not interested" sort of question. It just seemed logical for AP to follow the same format.
Graeme
| Scphoto |
| (Little Fruitbat) |
| 07/03/2008 23:00 |
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Quote:
Why post then?
Fair point.
I retract my previous post. It was a silly thing for me to do, please accept my apology for wasting your time.
| BrianT |
| (Old Hand) |
| 15/05/2008 18:44 |
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Quote:
People who are far more interested in what the serial number is and whether it's as original or unmodified than actually putting a film through it.
Jesus, my ears are getting warm.
| mike_j |
| (nobbut a beginner) |
| 15/05/2008 18:59 |
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Quote:
my ears are getting warm.
There you are - another benefit of Leicas, built in ear warmers
| BrianT |
| (Old Hand) |
| 15/05/2008 19:13 |
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No, being a Leica user it's ear pugs that are the most use. Saves listening to the Canon wingers.
| ermintrude |
| (Hinkypuff) |
| 16/05/2008 10:28 |
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Quote:
No, being a Leica user it's ear pugs that are the most use. Saves listening to the Canon wingers.
Earpugs?
| BrianT |
| (Old Hand) |
| 16/05/2008 19:23 |
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| mike_j |
| (nobbut a beginner) |
| 16/05/2008 19:36 |
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Re: Which Leica Full Frame First?? Poll
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Quote:Quote:
No, being a Leica user it's ear pugs that are the most use. Saves listening to the Canon wingers.
Earpugs?
you forgot something:
