willie45
old hand
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 761
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Hi
I was reading a book about exposure and the author gave a few examples of photographs he had taken and how he had metered for correct exposures. In some of the shots he had indicated areas which he stated were equivalent to 18% grey in tone. I was really surprised at some of the points he had chosen. They included part of the picture which were fairly vivid red or blue and other areas which I would have thought were too dark to judge as mid - grey equivalents.
It was a bit of an eye - opener to me and made me wonder if anyone knew of any available cards or even sites where you could download a comparison chart of shades and colours which equated to the 18% grey ideal so that I could educate myself and meter more accurately in future.
Willie
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TimF
Taking it strictly
Reged: 30/07/2001
Posts: 16863
Loc: Herts/Beds border
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A Gretag Macbeth ColorChecker - the one linked to is the mini version, similar to the one I have - is pretty much the standard. The mid-tone grey (which is actually 12%, not 18%) is the third from left on the top row.
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Tim BSRIPN
You see something happening and you bang away at it. Either you get what you saw or you get something else--and whichever is better you print. - Garry Winogrand
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Tacitus
History
Reged: 17/01/2006
Posts: 871
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Quote:
... The mid-tone grey (which is actually 12%, not 18%) is the third from left on the top row.
Or 14% according to Roger Hicks .... ?
Exposure measurement is a science, but its implementation is an artform. The more books I read (past tense), the more I realised that I should've just sidestepped the more high-falutin sections on exposure measurement, Zone System, etc, and instead figure-out what worked for me and my meter/camera/film/foto, and then just "go do it".
A grey card helped me for a short while, so I think/hope you'll find one useful as part of the learning process. My Kodak card has lasted 30 years, but doesn't get much use except for comparative purposes with new meters/cameras. For example, each of these may use subtly different exposure parameters, algorithms or assumptions ... then there are film characteristics, developing choices, etc to allow for ............... Enjoy!
.T.
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tessar
enthusiast
Reged: 10/12/2006
Posts: 339
Loc: In the shed, Dartmouth
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Hi,
If you are able to borrow, beg, or steal a handheld lightmeter that allows both incident and reflective readings, they are great learning tools. Just wander around your locality, point the meter at a brick wall(reflective) then turn around,slide the white diffuser(incident)and compare. Use road surfaces, grass also your hand usually one or two stops different depending on how clean they are!!
The angle of acceptance of reflective light meters is quite large maybe 35 degrees, so go in close. Personally I always use incident readings as they are relatively idiot proof and in my case thats the bottom line!!!!!!
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TimF
Taking it strictly
Reged: 30/07/2001
Posts: 16863
Loc: Herts/Beds border
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Yes. A lot of people are of the opinion that a grey card is really only of use under controlled lighting (ie, in the studio). I have a Hicks book where it is demonstrated in comparitive pictures that pointing the card at one light source will give one reading, and pointing it at a different source (eg, a fill rather than the main) will give a different reading, so don't for a minute believe those who claim that grey cards are infallible tools outside.
My personal view (for what little that is worth) is that an incident meter is the best solution when shooting either slide film or digital, as both need exposure to be pegged to the highlights for best results. A true spot meter is the best tool for negative film, as it is best served by exposing for the shadows.
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Tim BSRIPN
You see something happening and you bang away at it. Either you get what you saw or you get something else--and whichever is better you print. - Garry Winogrand
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willie45
old hand
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 761
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I have just started shooting slides for comps and find I have to take exposure a lot more seriously than with my 20D with its helpful screen on the back, but meantime I am having a great time getting it wrong 
I would certainly like to buy a decent lightmeter in the future which would allow for spot and incident readings as well as reflected. I checked out the prices of these and put it is on my list but it will probably be a while before I can work my way round to it.
I will definitely buy myself a grey card in the next couple of days and give it a try; I can afford one of these just now
The thing I really am keen to develop, though, is the ability to spot which colour in the scene I am photographing is equivalent to the mid grey point so that I can train the spot meter in my camera onto it. It seems this is quite a difficult skill to master.
Thanks for the replies.
Willie 
Edited by willie45 (19/12/2006 22:51)
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John_K
addict
Reged: 03/09/2006
Posts: 584
Loc: North Yorks
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You probably have an 18% gey card in your house as we speak. I have used one for years and they are free.
The inside of a cornflakes box is absolutely spot on. I can only verify that Kellogs boxes are correct, any of the others should be tested first!
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Malcolm_Stewart
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/2005
Posts: 2734
Loc: Milton Keynes, UK
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Your EOS3 allows multiple spot meterings, if these are any help. (p57 of the manual). I tended to rely on Evaluative for most shots, changing to Partial occasionally when the subject matter indicated. I can recommend an Expodisc as a portable grey card. It's smaller, and very useful for Custom White Balance on your 20D, or other digicam. Currently they're expensive (despite the recent price reduction), but you might find one as old as mine at a Camera Fair, and hopefully at a fair price. Otherwise a foam styrene coffee cup works well, I'm told.
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Malcolm Stewart
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TimF
Taking it strictly
Reged: 30/07/2001
Posts: 16863
Loc: Herts/Beds border
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Quote:
The thing I really am keen to develop, though, is the ability to spot which colour in the scene I am photographing is equivalent to the mid grey point so that I can train the spot meter in my camera onto it. It seems this is quite a difficult skill to master.
The ones I've seen suggested are a clear blue sky (ie, no clouds at all), which is probably not best at this time of year, and green spring grass (it tends to get darker during summer). Oh, and the palm of your hand (which should then be given one stop more exposure).
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Tim BSRIPN
You see something happening and you bang away at it. Either you get what you saw or you get something else--and whichever is better you print. - Garry Winogrand
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willie45
old hand
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 761
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Hi
Thanks again for the replies. All useful stuff. I will check out the kitchen cupboards for kellogs. I seem to see so many shades of grass and sky that I might get confused as to which ones to use though the palm of my hand is a useful tip and sounds pretty much foolproof.
I don't worry so much about metering in my 20D because the shots are free and I feel able to bracket a lot as well as checking the back of the camera display. I shoot in RAW and have so far let the auoto white balance deal with that side of things and make any final adjustments on the PC.
I am just getting used to the metering system in the EOS 3 and the options are fantastic. I am really pleased with this camera thus far. I haven't tried the multiple spot metering but I remember thinking it sounded extremely impressive when reading about it.
Thanks again,
Willie
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Paul_G
Reged: 07/07/2002
Posts: 172
Loc: Halifax, West Yorkshire
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Quote:
My personal view (for what little that is worth) is that an incident meter is the best solution when shooting either slide film or digital, as both need exposure to be pegged to the highlights for best results. A true spot meter is the best tool for negative film, as it is best served by exposing for the shadows.
Agreed, but for landscape work the only sensible choice is a spot meter regardless of what capture medium you're using. (I suppose one could run up the mountain in the distance to take an incident reading, but without a handy helicopter or hot air baloon, the sky would be a bit tricky  ) Provided you use it properly (and I'm not for one moment claiming that I always manage this!) it works fine for trannies/digital.
Paul
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TimF
Taking it strictly
Reged: 30/07/2001
Posts: 16863
Loc: Herts/Beds border
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Quote:
I suppose one could run up the mountain in the distance to take an incident reading
There is that option I guess, but being in similar light to the subject has always worked for me so far! An incident meter is still good for getting in the general ball-park I reckon, and a spot can be used to assess specific areas after - my principal grief with limited area readings is pointing it at the right bit, especially if the proverbial mid-tone is required.........which is where we came in I think.
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Tim BSRIPN
You see something happening and you bang away at it. Either you get what you saw or you get something else--and whichever is better you print. - Garry Winogrand
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Benchista
Wich Tyler
Reged: 11/08/2000
Posts: 38335
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere, baby
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It very much depends on the shooting situation. If what you're shooting has the same illumination as where you are, then incident is perfect. If not, spot is better.
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Nick
www.nbrphoto.com
Light and Shade II - the new blog
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Paul_G
Reged: 07/07/2002
Posts: 172
Loc: Halifax, West Yorkshire
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Quote:
An incident meter is still good for getting in the general ball-park I reckon, and a spot can be used to assess specific areas after - my principal grief with limited area readings is pointing it at the right bit, especially if the proverbial mid-tone is required.........which is where we came in I think.
Quite
Paul
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John_K
addict
Reged: 03/09/2006
Posts: 584
Loc: North Yorks
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Aside from the 'Kellogs' exposure guide I suggested several postings back.
Have you access to a spot meter, especially one with a facility to keep several readings in the memory. Since I recntly aquired mine I have used nothing else and can say without question it is the most reliable form of metering I have used.
Once I have done at least 3 readings. I judge the centre point and gauge whether I want a particular point to be the mid tone area then check this against the said grey card and usually they agree.
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Malcolm_Stewart
Carpal \'Tunnel
Reged: 11/07/2005
Posts: 2734
Loc: Milton Keynes, UK
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Quote:
Have you access to a spot meter, especially one with a facility to keep several readings in the memory.
His camera is an EOS3 which has this facility.
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Malcolm Stewart
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willie45
old hand
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 761
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Hi John,
Yes, as Malcolm stated I have that facility.I have only recently acquired the EOS 3 and am still getting to grips with it but I will certainly be using that method on it.
Thanks again for your help
Merry Christmas everyone
Willie
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Woolliscroft
veteran
Reged: 23/08/2005
Posts: 1253
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You can get grey cards at Jessops. I mostly use them for studio, especially copy stand, work. I've never found them much use out of doors and they are a faff to carry about.
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David.
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willie45
old hand
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 761
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Umm why is this always stuck at the top and showing David's posting above as new?
Willie
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willie45
old hand
Reged: 08/05/2006
Posts: 761
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Hmm this seems to have shifted it. Maybe it's just my pc but this post has been on the top of all the others for days on my browser and Davids post always is highlighted with a red number to indicate it is newly posted since the last time I visited.
Ah well, it's gone now so I can sleep easily tonight
Willie
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